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PostPosted: Fri Aug 01, 2014 10:24 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:16 pm
Posts: 5
people I need some feedback. Im in the process of building a 1600 to complete in the classic class of tarmac rallies (race only). I'm about to press the start button on building a N/A carb FJ20. So first question is
Who is the best person/company in the country to advise on building a fully race prepped FJ. SWR??? Note, i'd like to build the motor myself. It would be my first motor build but I think I now have the money and patience to do it.
Second:
Am I driving down the wrong path with the FJ. My only other option is a L series, to fit class regs........

I would like 200rwhp. I know its asking a lot from both motors and I know ill be spending 15k+

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Nath


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 9:53 am 
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Posts: 73
Location: Melbourne
Nate510 wrote:
people I need some feedback. Im in the process of building a 1600 to complete in the classic class of tarmac rallies (race only). I'm about to press the start button on building a N/A carb FJ20. So first question is
Who is the best person/company in the country to advise on building a fully race prepped FJ. SWR??? Note, I'd like to build the motor myself. It would be my first motor build but I think I now have the money and patience to do it.
Second:
Am I driving down the wrong path with the FJ. My only other option is a L series, to fit class regs........

I would like 200rwhp. I know its asking a lot from both motors and I know ill be spending 15k+

Your thoughts would be much appreciated.

Cheers

Nath
Geez 200rwhp, A stroked FJ 2.4 is your only option. Maybe talk with Les collins in Warragul Victoria as well.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 10:20 am 
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Or maybe James Flett at MIA 9982 5288


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:35 am 
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Location: Hindmarsh Island, SA
First off you'll need to lose the idea of 200rwhp (147rwkw) from a 2.0L l-series. While possible from an FJ20, it'd be very peaky and better suited to a close ratio gearbox and a race circuit. Not a rally stage. A Honda F20c makes 130ish rwkw, and that's a good shooting point for a flexible 4v engine.

Thing is for a rally engine, especially tarmac, is that it needs to be flexible with a wide spead of torque. Even more so if you're stuck with the stock 3.7 diff and 4 speed. If you get an L-series to 200-210BHP that would be a good shooting point. 220-230BHP for an FJ20. And whatever gets to the wheels, gets to the wheels.

A last gasp screamer is out of place on rally stages, because it's too hard to keep the engine up there, what you really need is good pulling from low to medium speed corners at medium RPM.

If you use the FJ you get the extra gear, but it's an overdrive which is still of no use, unless you can shorten the diff ratio, 4.4:1 would be perfect. Food for thought, in my caldina on the many, many nights thrashing in the Adelaide hills and up and down Mt. Hotham/ Falls Creek. I very, very rarely get out of third gear. Having a flexible motor that you can leave in gear will lower your stage time, because every time you change gear you lose time. + More gear changes = more chances to miss gears especially as you get tired. I'd often leave my car in second or 3rd on the limiter for almost 2 seconds between corners because it's faster then changing up and then having to change back, being able to use all of the rev range is vital in a rally engine with a H-pattern box.

You need Power under the curve.

Personally I'd stick with an L20, Flat top pistons, Works 74 cam, 41cc Closed chamber A87 head ported on a CNC with chambers done, 86mm flat top pistons, 1mm HG, 0 deck height, Light weight Flywheel billet flywheel, 102-Race fuel, Big inlet valves, Keihin FCR39 or 41 or Mikuni RS40 mm Flat slide carburettors (these are smooth bore and have no chokes, very popular in Japan in place of more traditional DCOE carburettors.)

That combo will yield 11.5:1 static compression, which should be fine on race fuel. If that doesn't get you a very usable 210BHP on the engine dyno I'll be a monkey's uncle. and you'll definitely have change out of $15k. Note the same could be done on an L16 and then you're in the 1600cc class :) I'd advise against over-boring the L18 to 2L, because you lose torque with the shorter stroke. With the cash you save using an L20 you, can splurge more on chassis development/handling which will pay dividends on the clock far more than a few extra ponies at the top end.

The big ticket items are the carburettors (~$1000 for new Mikuni RS40's,) the CNC porting, inlet manifold though a DCOE manifold can be adapted easily, tuning. You wont need forged pistons, quality replacement L28 flat-tops (with valve notches) will be fine and stock rods with some love (shot peened + balanced) will be more than up to the task. No need for MLS head gasket. Dry sump for a few extra KW, but I'd say hardly worth the expense.

Test with both 4-1 and 4-2-1 extractors and evaluate what's better for your purpose. + heat wrap the extractors and install a heat shield.

High compression FJ20's are getting expensive to build, due to availability of blocks/heads, high comp pistons, appropriate camshafts/cam gears, valve springs... You also run into the age old problem of space between Cylinder no.4's inlet trumpet and the clutch/brake master cylinders. the 510 engine bay isn't large and I'd see this being a problem needing to be solved. Also consider that Carbie FJ20's aren't entirely street legal (removal of EFI and all) so you 'may' need to trailer between stages ;) The FJ20's are also heavier than the L-Series.

Regards
Jordan.

Edit: I see you're looking to use the RB25 box? I'd seriously reconsider this. Given the low torque (relatively speaking of an NA2.0L vs say a turbo 2.5L) I can't think of any reason to lug around the extra mass of an RB25 gearbox, they're really heavy. I've been putting 250RWkW through my CA18 gearbox on the circuit and it's holding together. Remember you're not going to be clutch kicking, drifting, abusing the gearbox. You'll probably have 205/50R15 tyres, your car will weigh 1-Tonne and change wet with drivers you don't need that gear box. A smart person would use an SR20 6-speed (where 5th is already 1:1 :thumbsup: ) and lock out 6th gear to keep it legal (if you have to.) Newer, cheaper, lighter and more than strong enough to handle an NA2.0L.

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Past rides: 86 Hilux, 3x ke55 rollas's (2coupes,) 2x ST185 GT4's, RA28, TA22, KE10, P610 datto, RT40 corona x3, RT132, MX13.

Current Rolling stock: 2000 model ST215 Caldina, CAA22 celica (race,) RT40 corona (cruiser)


Last edited by JFAllen on Sat Aug 02, 2014 1:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 11:47 am 
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Posts: 5
Cheers for info men. That is good advice in regards to the delivery of the power. Currently the vehicle has a 3.9 R200 CLSD that I want to swap out to a 5.1 R180 CLSD. Gearbox wise i'd be looking at running a 5 speed from a RB25 and swapping out 1-3 gear sets or a close ratio style.
Once again thanks for the comments.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:56 pm 
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Joined: Sun Dec 08, 2013 6:16 pm
Posts: 5
JFAllen,
Thanks for your words mate. Other peoples experience is worth it's weight in GOLD. Im not trying to reinvent the wheel. I'm not the first person wanting to build a Datsun for tarmac, so i'm all for taking on board other peoples thoughts. My main reason for going FJ was just to be a little bit different. Plus the fact that 20-15 years ago I was drooling all over them whenever a car was featured in hot/fast fours.
Keep the info flowing gentlemen.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 12:07 am 
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Joined: Thu Jun 12, 2014 6:58 pm
Posts: 15
Location: Western Cape, South Africa
Very interesting post JF.
Would your build spec change radically if you had to run on premium pump fuel?

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Nissan Pathfinder R51 Tow Car


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 03, 2014 1:44 am 
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Location: Hindmarsh Island, SA
There are plenty of cars today ha run +11.5:1 compression and almost every sports bike does. In Australia you can ge 100 octane from the pump. And in the end if you can get your combustion chamber right with correct tuning you might be ok. 11.5:1 is on the high side of things for an L-Series head (they're a good wedge-type head, but they're sure no modern pen-roof.)

Also Nate I should have stated that, Instead of 102 FIA fuel (which is $5+ a litre,) you'd be better off running 100/130 AVGAS (The green stuff, though technically 100LL AVGAS has the same properties, which is blue and available in the Eastern states, booo.) AVGAS is $2.60 or so a Litre for motorsports use, damn fuel excise it's under a $1.50 out at the aerodromes for aviation use. 100/130 has 0.4g/L of metalic lead:) And My CA18DET loves it, but that's another story.

The best bit about AVGAS is fuel consistency, which is so much better than RON 98 from he pump, along with also being a higher quality fuel. There are very strict rules governing the manufacture/transport/storage/lifespan of AVGAS that must be met in order to be allowed to sell it. E85 is the elephant in the corner of course, but your mileage may vary with Weber's/Solex's/Delleroto's/Mikuni's/Keihin's and variability out of the pump. Obviously motor sports E85 is far more consistent, but then you're paying motor sports fuel pricing, while using 50+% more.

regards
Jordan

_________________
Past rides: 86 Hilux, 3x ke55 rollas's (2coupes,) 2x ST185 GT4's, RA28, TA22, KE10, P610 datto, RT40 corona x3, RT132, MX13.

Current Rolling stock: 2000 model ST215 Caldina, CAA22 celica (race,) RT40 corona (cruiser)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 05, 2014 8:43 am 
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Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2005 4:23 pm
Posts: 33
Location: Blue Mountains
Bill the engine builder from SWR has left the company recently.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 10, 2014 10:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 12:13 am
Posts: 228
Location: The Gap Brisvegas
Bloke here in Brisbane rebuilt an old fj24, couple years back.
Twin 55 dcoe weber carbs, pulp
Pulled 231 rwhp at 9000

It's in an old rally car.

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Yep, i race a Datsun, and I drive a truck, sometimes I get confused, and then the truck goes fast, and the Datsun gets a lot of boxes shoved into it. AWW GEE


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 12, 2014 6:00 pm 
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If you've decided on an FJ, check out this for sale - it will get you well and truly started on the way to a radical FJ and your goals of 200 kW, it is a true bargain and comes with a reputable pedigree...from no less than Ben Diggles (6.93 second @ 190 MPH fame) drag rail...

http://www.network54.com/Forum/352251/t ... d+for+sale

Sorry about the cross forum promotion....

http://www.network54.com/Forum/166246/t ... +sec+FJ+20


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:32 pm 
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Location: Gosnells, WA
I'm not sure that you can use AVGAS anymore. Pretty sure they were phasing it out. Unless you've got a car with an existing logbook that dates back far enough, fairly sure you're not allowed to use it. Circuit races could be an exemption, and possibly historic rally cars, but I'd be checking with a scruitineer before building a motor to it.
E85 is pricey (~$3/L in a drum, which is more consistent than from the pump) and due to the amount you use, can present logistic problems for tarmac rally, especially if there's some long stages.
I'd personally build the motor to run on 98RON fuel unless money falls from your pockets as you walk down the streets.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:09 pm 
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Location: Western Australia
JFP 105 is a good race fuel for NA engines. It is fairly cheap at $3 a litre.
I bring a few 44s into WA every few months

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:32 pm 
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Location: Hindmarsh Island, SA
From Cams Schedule G: Fuels
Quote:
3. RACING FUEL
3.1 LEADED RACING FUEL: Leaded racing fuel is defined as a leaded petrol which is supplied by an oil
company and having a composition the same as that supplied for piston engine general aviation use, ie, AvGas
100/130 or AvGas 100LL only.
Still very available and still legal ;) For Cams events JFP 105 is not allowed only 102RON FIA fuels. Remember old datsuns are historic rally cars.

Regards
Jordan

Regards
Jordan

_________________
Past rides: 86 Hilux, 3x ke55 rollas's (2coupes,) 2x ST185 GT4's, RA28, TA22, KE10, P610 datto, RT40 corona x3, RT132, MX13.

Current Rolling stock: 2000 model ST215 Caldina, CAA22 celica (race,) RT40 corona (cruiser)


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 04, 2014 8:38 pm 
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Location: Gosnells, WA
Rookie mistake. Just because it's referenced in the CAMS manual doesn't make it eligible for the event you're entering. I refer you to the supp regs for the Targa West event which has it's regs based on The Australian Tarmac Rally Championship
Quote:
4.5 Fuel
4.5.1 Modern Competition
A maximum of 102 RON unleaded fuel or E85 Ethanol Blend fuel can be used. If using unleaded
fuel, ANY offence for exceeding the 102 RON maximum will result in a recommendation to the
Stewards of the Meeting of a penalty which may go as far as exclusion from the Event.
Modern Showroom
A maximum of 98 RON unleaded fuel can be used. ANY offence for exceeding the 98 RON
maximum will result in a recommendation to the Stewards of the Meeting of a penalty which may go
as far as exclusion from the Event.
Classic Competition
As per the current requirements under the CAMS Tarmac Rally Technical Regulations – Classic.
6.8 Fuel
Fuel shall only be commercial fuel or unleaded racing fuel as defined by CAMS in Schedule G (refer
“General Requirements for Cars and Drivers”).
Be aware that this regulation excludes the use of leaded racing fuels i.e. AvGas 100/130
Modern and Classic Challenge
A maximum of 98 RON unleaded fuel can be used, ANY offence for exceeding 98 RON will result in
a recommendation to the Stewards of the Meeting of a penalty which may go as far as exclusion
from the Event.
The use of diesel fuels and alternative energies will still be allowed as per the CAMS Tarmac Rally
Technical Regulations.
The East coast regs may be different, but it's certainly been excluded from WA rally (tarmac or gravel) for quite some time. Circuit racing is a different kettle of fish.

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Happiness is watching the race.... in your rearview mirror


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