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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2011 6:56 pm 
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Location: The Gap Brisvegas
k-man 79 wagon wrote:
if u get an l20b with a z24 crank, l18 conrods, steel head gasket, z20 head, t28 bb turbo, 3" exhaust, good ecu, big fuel pump, 500cc injectors etcetcetc u could make big power from an l20b
um we are not talking turbos,
remove the turbo from this combo, and its a bit of a slug, good torquey truck motor, fine for rally use though!

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Yep, i race a Datsun, and I drive a truck, sometimes I get confused, and then the truck goes fast, and the Datsun gets a lot of boxes shoved into it. AWW GEE


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2011 3:39 am 
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dat2kman wrote:
My other THING, is a FJ24 equipped Datsun 120Y factory built rally car, for a little sheep farmer in Talmalmo, back in the 1980's, IT is developing 320hp at 8500, on twin side draft carbies, all atmo, and all standard as it came from Nissan, save for fresh steel and new internals
It's off to the Alpine rally in a couple of weeks time!
Good Luck for the rally. Sounds like one Fury-ous 120Y :giggle:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 10:56 am 
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dat2kman wrote:
mine is putting out 243 at 7500 and 191 ft lb at 5500 It poos over a L20B
stock block and head, steel internals, slight mods to a billet cam, 9 you cant get the lift and duration from grinding a stock cam) the head is so close to a L series FIA head from a porting perspective it is not funny.
my thing passes Shelby Mustangs, De Tomaso Panteras, Porsche 2.7 RS & 3.0 Carreras, and 260z's all in race spec, at Phillip Island 2011, in 2010 I was in the pre 1970's class with mistangs, Corvette 7 litre, Morgan v8s, and won all four races.
At bathurst, best was a fifth o/r behind four porsches in 2010

This Datusun 2000, is acknowledged as the worlds longest racing, most succesfull, and most winning Datsun Sports 2000, currently today. it is quick, it uses all parts available in the day from the Nissan competition parts catalogues, it isnt a highly modified all out thing, just a basic close to stock Datsun Sports 2000, just well built and well looked after.

My other THING, is a FJ24 equipped Datsun 120Y factory built rally car, for a little sheep farmer in Talmalmo, back in the 1980's, IT is developing 320hp at 8500, on twin side draft carbies, all atmo, and all standard as it came from Nissan, save for fresh steel and new internals
It's off to the Alpine rally in a couple of weeks time!
Thank you for the insight into your beasts!
Im glad to hear of peeps like yourself who are in the rarity still embarrass so many in nose up in the air machinery and way bigger capacity.

In your experience has anyone ever stroked a u20 using the 93mm H25 crank?
Im sure it wouldnt make more power but I wonder about the torque.
Also your U20 engine using carbs, roller rockers, aftermarket rods and other top notch
equipment or mainly factory prepped internals? In your view is there more available
from a U20 engine using latest injection, titanium valves, rods and other bits etc?

Ive seen what some of the porsches run in terms of dollars and Im sure by the sounds
of many using the U20 its seems to way less in costs to get it competitive.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:18 pm 
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Whoa, lots questions!
The Porsches i run against are all big dollar stuff, thst is Porsche, a top ten outright car will be 200,000 plus to get on track, plus feeding it and maintaining through year!. The shelby Stangs and detomados the same. Thete is a Lotus 7 that cleans up, low cost, low $$ car, the 240/260 zeds do very very well bang for buck, my blue usa injected prod sporys on a goid day has run 3 rd outright behind the top Porshes, it cost some 50 to put it on the track.

The u20 engine was pretty special, small production run but high cost to make, the head is almost FIA spec L series, block was the for runner to fj20 and fj24. l series was a economy of scale mass manufacture engine, but still bloidy good!

There was a bloke, Dave Morrow, who stroked and bored a u20 to 2.3 litres, stuck it into a Datsun 1600 and proceeded to blow everyone to the weeds back in early 1970's, no one could catch him, then othets started to develop the L sreies, Dave moved nto circuit racing, and still is in Historics events like me!
Yes my internals are more insurance and strength, but with that comes good power, it uses bigger valves, block is running thick wall sleeves it has been made rigid, carbs are solex mikuni 50 mm cam is to suit engine use, it it mayed to nissan option gearboxes, and the big h190 diffs in from 4.3 to 5.1, so it is not just the engine alone. Yes you could make all trick titanium stuff etc, but it all has a "life" i do a full teardown and repkace anything that falks below spec every 35 to 40 hours of engine running, yes a bit exxy, but it cost me aprox 2500 to do it, cheap insurance!

If ypu would like the idea of coming racing, it is bloody good fun, id be more than happy to coach/mentor some younger people, have done it a bit, so no probs!, yes initial car cost is high, but ongoing is ok. I do aporox 10 meetings a year, 2 here in Qld, rest interstate, i get scared when i start to add up dollars, but jst go ahh stuff it, i figure i am a long time dead, and i cant keep doing this much longer. Im not your average young internet car xpert forum jockey, im a grumpy old carnt, i get the shits with technology, im just old school!

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Yep, i race a Datsun, and I drive a truck, sometimes I get confused, and then the truck goes fast, and the Datsun gets a lot of boxes shoved into it. AWW GEE


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Location: The Gap Brisvegas
I learn new stuff a lot, educate me on the H25 engine? Bore stroke? What model was it in? Are crank mains and big ends same dimensions?

I am familiar with the H20 this was fitted to Nissan Datsun Urvans, or E20 vans, and plenty of forklifts!
The internals are an almost direct swap nto a R16 engine from a Fairlady 1600 mid 60s model, not such a great revving engine, but strong torque engine.

The dimensions of u20 crank are not same as H20, also in a race or even jolly fast road use with odd track day, i would not use stock crank. Get one made up properly, aporox cost these days say 3000?? Get custom rods made say by Manley or whover, say 1500 set of four forged pistons, allow 900 for some trick latest spec tech designs, flow bench head and intakes, a set of four into one headets, close ratio box, and most important a lsd diff!
Depending on what ypu want to run in, ie sprints regularity hill climbs etc, yeah go injection throttle bodies use a cut down bw78 from a r31wagon go Pinty 4.1 gears piss off tje crap cone limo, and put a proper clutch limo in, it comes with rear discs!
Front discs, use s13 turbo sylvia, heaps calipwrs avail, you end up with a unique rare fun car, every bugger will come up and ask you about it!
Shees, i do go on, sorry!!!

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Yep, i race a Datsun, and I drive a truck, sometimes I get confused, and then the truck goes fast, and the Datsun gets a lot of boxes shoved into it. AWW GEE


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2011 9:49 pm 
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All good, love to hear as much as possible from the dudes that do the stuff rather than dream it :)
Im glad you can make it happen and accept that you cant take your hard earned money to the grave.

When 311s.org Peeps do the R16 stroker they use either the u20 or h20 crankshaft.
The cranks have the same bearings but just the u20 and h20 crank snouts are a bit
longer which are usually machined down.

Here are the specs for the H25 cranks, seems all the same bar the crankpins which
doesnt matter as long as you can use modded under piston squirters for added lube.

http://www.motorpowerinc.com/specs/h20.html
vs
http://www.motorpowerinc.com/specs/h25.html

Aero shaped Billet crankshaft with tungsten counterweights would be nice but I hear
the R/H/U cranks are bullet proof?

The H190 alloy centre LSD is a rare beast but much lighter than a BW.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2011 3:48 pm 
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Location: Belco, act
yeah true no turbos

ive only ever partually liked turbos

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 6:28 pm 
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The U20 is a great motor, but I have to wade in and say it's not particularly powerful. I reckon if you did the right head work on an L-series (the inlet ports on the U are particularly big), put the compression up to 12 or 13:1, ran a filthy big cam and twin 50mm dual-throats (and I'm guessing that's what dat2kman's setup is going to be) there's no reason it'd make less horsepower than a U20. The U20 was designed (some say over-designed) not for outright power, but for reliability in long races. For example, the crank is much bigger and stronger than an L-series crank, with oil galleries to each bearing, and the biggest counterweights you've ever seen. The flywheel is held on with 12 bolts - vs. the L series' 7 (IIRC). The oil pump vanes are almost twice the size of the H series oil pump vanes. etc. etc. etc. Disadvantage of all that, of course, is huge reciprocating weight. When we rebuilt my engine, we took something like 6 or 7 kilos out of the bottom end! So arguably, you wouldn't need to do that with an L. No way is any non-crossflow 8 valve head going to flow more power than a 16 valve twin cam motor, so given rarity of U20 parts, I wouldn't consider it useful for a swap into other dattos, when there's a great aftermarket for the various twin cam motors out there.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:40 am 
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When it comes to 8v motors the U20 is superior to the L20
the 16valve comparison was never part of the topic but worth
noting the differences thank you!


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:46 pm 
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d wrote:
When it comes to 8v motors the U20 is superior to the L20
the 16valve comparison was never part of the topic but worth
noting the differences thank you!
No, but there were comments regarding swapping a U20 into other cars. Not worth the effort, IMHO.

Don't get me wrong, the U20 is a great engine - I drive mine daily, and have done the odd event with it, as well. All I'm saying is that there isn't that huge a difference in the two motors:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7BJO0zlJtM

L20 by Les Collins making 225hp @ 6500rpm. Not that much different to the U20 racecar we were talking about - and probably deliberately built for mid-range torque than outright hp, which is nicer for rallying.

Cheers,
Steve
(Datsun 2000 Sports roadster with a bored, stroked U20 making ~180hp)


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:38 am 
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Cant complain about that really amazing!!! in comparison to a "Honda S2000 F20C"

L20B - 225hp @ 6500 rpm; 194ft lb @ 5250 rpm
F20C - 240 HP @ 8,300 rpm; 153 ft lb @ 7,500 rpm
U20 - 243 HP @ 7500 rpm; 191 ft lb @ 5500 rpm

The L series in the video with webers has almost 40lbs more torque at much better rpm
than the Honda F20C by far but the U20 talked about earlier is still amazing for an 8 valver

Very impressive Nissan engine


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:29 am 
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Location: The Gap Brisvegas
d wrote:
Cant complain about that really amazing!!! in comparison to a "Honda S2000 F20C"

L20B - 225hp @ 6500 rpm; 194ft lb @ 5250 rpm
F20C - 240 HP @ 8,300 rpm; 153 ft lb @ 7,500 rpm
U20 - 243 HP @ 7500 rpm; 191 ft lb @ 5500 rpm

The L series in the video with webers has almost 40lbs more torque at much better rpm
than the Honda F20C by far but the U20 talked about earlier is still amazing for an 8 valver

Very impressive Nissan engine
Honda jobbie bit more modern, lots of hi-tech gizmos!
Lets get back to old.

Fj24 (proper one in the 120y) 320 hp at 8500, 250 ft lb at 6500
This was with no air filters and cocktail fuel, crazy full race big duration cams

Now pulled back less dur cams, airfilters, avgas neat, jetted to suitpulls now from 3000 drops of at 8500
On a rolling road dyno dynamics, 205 hp at 8000 and tractive effort figure at 1001 at 5500
Factor in driveline losses, at flwheel approx 280 hp and 230 ft lb

Car is far more drivable ie suit dirt, the way it was meant to be, we didnt have time to pull it out just to stick it on a engine dyno, that will happen when it gets next freshen up.
BTW my u20 above is done on Roy Goidmans (nth coast nsw) engine dyno, and is accurate he builds plenty race motors!

I have the originla dyno sheets from Toms unit, which became Les's unit, which is now Simon's unit for Pud Thompsons rally 240RS, as well as when Jamie Drummond built Fury's 120Y with the FJ24
Ah history!

_________________
Yep, i race a Datsun, and I drive a truck, sometimes I get confused, and then the truck goes fast, and the Datsun gets a lot of boxes shoved into it. AWW GEE


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:55 pm 
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Love history, as for the ricey f20c honda it was just for comparison of Hondas best
which is a reknown engine designer yet for all the technology, ugly looking engine
and not to mention same weight as the U20 it has less torque and power is at very
high rpm and by that time the u20 would of chomped it.

Just wondering the u20 you have making 243hp/191lbs does it have dry sumping?
Any other details eg. thermo fans, electric water pump, worked original crank or other?
distributorless ignition, clutch setup etc....


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:35 pm 
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Location: The Gap Brisvegas
D, sounds like you is falling for ol' skool stuff! Good on you!
New Honda v old U20 40 years in technology advancement there!

Mine has stock alloy sump, wet, runs factory option baffling 8 litres capacity.
No fan, std water pump, replicated crank in steel steel flywheel replicated but lighter, same crazy number of bolts holding fly to crank. Forged rods forged pistons, Solex Mikuni 50 mm ( factory option!) std distributor but factory optional electronic version, stock standard 720 kg clamp u20 clutch cover, solid centre three puck clutch plate

Have to remember Nissan back in late '60's bent over backwards supplying a heap of homologated competition items for a lot of tneir cars, the Datsun Spirts cats were well regarded in USA SCCA ranks.
One of my mates here in Qld, has imported an original D Prod Scca Datsun 2000, ex Jack Scoville/Duane Fuerhiem left hand drive, he is running it now in historics here in Australia, we will both be at PhillipIsland Classic meeting next March 2012 its almost as quick as mine! Get 10 of these togetjer and they will all be about the same.
They were just better than anything else as production cars back in theday, and now 40 plus years later, still hold thier own amongst bigger faster powerfull modern cars on the teack

_________________
Yep, i race a Datsun, and I drive a truck, sometimes I get confused, and then the truck goes fast, and the Datsun gets a lot of boxes shoved into it. AWW GEE


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 13, 2011 5:51 pm 
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Oldskool all the way, I own 3 datsun 1000 a tudor sedan, van/wagon and coupe
had many more in my 42 years and working towards a 99 inch wheelbase 1000 coupe.
(89 inches original but would love the extra for handling and longer engine option)
Hopefully will have an R16 with H20 or h25 crank or Prince G20 in her one day :)

So wet sumped U20 with oldskook ignition but all steel steel internals !!! :))
Can only imagine todays "Ti" bits and fueling in an u20 theres more hp in the U20 available.
Will definitely get to the Island for that event to see the best Datsuns/Nissans ever made.


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